Chaplain Series: Frontline Accounts of Bravery, Compassion and Hope with Guest Dr. Michael Sprague

Join Tammy Toney-Butler and guest Dr. Michael Sprague in this episode of Reflective Hour. Tammy dives into Michael's book, " Disaster: Betting the Farm on God in Life's Storms."

Michael was on the frontlines in Louisana in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. His heroic leadership efforts during this time, with his church being, in essence, ground zero of relief efforts, are miraculous examples of God's provision at work.

Community, volunteerism, leadership, and the God of the resupply all meet, and powerful testimonies of faith ensue. Michael and the team were Jesus' hands and feet.

Learn from Michael's vantage point as the Louisiana State Chaplain and a former pastor. Learn how to overcome any adversity you face in God's strength, not your own.

See Michael's bio below:

Dr. Michael Sprague is the Louisiana State Chaplain with the Capitol Commission and President of Grace Adventures, which reaches out to political, business, and spiritual leaders in the New Orleans/Baton Rouge region and beyond. Michael is engaged in relational outreach and discipleship, teaching, coaching, writing,g and speaking. His non-profit helps leaders think through the “Big Questions” of life and thrive as a whole person: spiritually, relationally, physically, and emotionally. Michael wants leaders to win in politics, career, and life. He often serves as a “non-political” friend to people in the halls of leadership.

Michael spends a lot of time at the Capitol in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, working with Legislators, lobbyists, administration, and Capitol staff in a non-political, non-partisan pastoral/chaplain role. The focus is not to lobby for legislation (as important as that is) but to help leaders with their faith and lives. Days are filled with Bible studies, prayer, listening, caring appointments, and many surprises. Michael loves to help people know the Jesus of the Scriptures.

Michael has spoken at political and community events, preached at megachurches and small churches, and led retreats and workshops on topics including influence, leadership, global mission, faith and politics, faith and vocation, courage, hope, and dealing with disaster. He has been featured on such programs as Fox and Friends, Fox Business Risk and Rewards, Moody Radio, and Christianity Today.

Michael holds a Business degree from the University of Maryland, a Master of Divinity degree from Capital Bible Seminary (Lanham, Maryland), and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Dallas Theological Seminary. He served as Senior Pastor of Trinity Church in Covington, Louisiana, for 11 years and formerly served for 15 years at Forcey Bible Church in Silver Spring, Maryland. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, he helped launch the Touch Global Crisis Response Ministry for the Evangelical Free Churches of America. He wrote two books – DISASTER: Betting the Farm on God in Life’s Storms and Stories from Katrinaland. 

Michael lives with his wonderful wife and

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Transcript

Welcome to today's episode of Reflective Hour with Tammy Toney-Butler. I'm your host, but we all know who the real host of this show is, and that's Christ. Today, we have a very special guest who is joining us in our chaplain series as we honor those on the front lines, the front lines in the halls of Congress, cemeteries, hospitals, prisons, and so many more places. The job of a chaplain is never easy. It often is in the shadows that they do their greatest work for humanity, for the community at large, and they touch lives in disaster areas. all over the world. Dr. Michael Sprague joins us today. Michael was on the front lines in Hurricane Katrina, the worst natural disaster in our history at that time. We're going to be diving into his book called Disaster, Bedding the Farm on God in Life's Storms. And you can see I've placed it up on the screen for you to view. It is available on Amazon. And it is a powerful read. A read that transforms, brings restoration, and brings a knowledge of Lord Jesus that we all need during the times that we face today. We need hope. We need love. We need compassion. We need mercy. We need to paint the world we want to see one podcast, one platform, one episode at a time. I will be bringing on our guests now. Dr. Michael Sprague. I want everyone to welcome him to the show as we glean from him, from his expertise, from little nuggets of knowledge that he alone possesses. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show, Michael. Hello. It's great to be with you, Tammy, and all those that are listening. Well, you know, your bio is so long and so amazing. And I was going to read it. It's in the show notes and I'll make sure I put it in when I put this up on YouTube. But if you're like me and I know that you are, we're kindred spirits already. You know, your bio is that you serve Jesus Christ, you know. And so I would love for you to tell the audience a little bit about you, about your work. And anything you want that the Holy Spirit's placing on your heart as far as your bio and his bio as he works in and through you and your amazing work on the front lines. Oh, I'm just Michael. I'm just a servant of Jesus Christ. You know, he's the one that needs to increase. I need to decrease. But it's a great privilege to know him and to serve him. And that's available to anyone. I've been a pastor for twenty six years in the traditional role, fifteen years in the Washington, D.C. area, eleven years in Covington, Louisiana. And during that time, I went through Hurricane Katrina, never got trained in seminary, what to do in the greatest natural disaster in American history. But God made it up one day at a time. And then five years later, I was confronted by thirteen different people who came to me independent of each other and said, Michael, no one works with the top leaders of the state of Louisiana. It's like a mission field, but it's an untapped mission field. And I kind of said, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm a pastor. I'm not a chaplain. I wouldn't know how to do that. But God worked in an unusual way. And I ended up saying yes to that mission field. And it has been life changing because I've seen leaders bow their heads and trust in Christ, leaders who look to the word of God. It's not everyone, but increasingly there's a remnant and more than a remnant in elected office who are making a difference for the kingdom of God. And so it's a joy for the last fourteen and a half years to show up at our Capitol. I don't want one thing from anybody. It's kind of the chaplain role. I don't want one favor. I don't want one penny. I don't have an agenda. I'm not there to tell people how to vote. I'm not gonna be a pain in their backside. I wanna be one of the ten or twenty people in their life who don't want anything from them except for their best. And if they wanna take a step of faith, I wanna pour gasoline all over that and to walk with them as a friend, a friend during their good times, a friend during the bad times. I've walked with two officials who went to prison and I walk with them through their prison experience. It doesn't matter to me if they're Republican and Democrat and independent, whatever they are, I just want to show up with a ministry of presence, prayer, and proclamation. And it's a great, great honor to serve the Lord in that way. Wow, that is powerful. you know, the Lord placed on me to read your book and to reach out to you. And I couldn't believe that you said yes. And that you had agreed to come on the show. But as you know, and I know, when we follow the Holy Spirit, we're one in spirit and truth. And He guides and directs our steps. And He, you just know there's a knowing with Him. And I knew that I was to reach out to you. And I knew that we would be on the show together. And But there are things that I didn't know that would be revealed through the reading of your book, your book, Disaster. I'm going to try to bring it on the stage again with us together here. There it is. And it's betting the farm on God and life storms. So make sure that you pick it up on Amazon. And we are just so privileged to have Michael here. And so now, I mean, there we go. So the Lord pressed upon me. And you're just going to have to humor me. And we're going live, guys. And this has not been prerecorded. Michael hasn't rehearsed his answers. I literally got a download from the Holy Spirit this morning as I sat with this book and my time along with the Lord on what pages to go to and what to ask Michael. So, Holy Spirit, this is your show. You work in and through us and bring your truth. Holy Spirit, we ask that you open the ears, the spiritual ears for people to hear and the spiritual eyes for them to see supernaturally what it is that you want. So the veil of deception and secrecy can be lifted off and the truth can be revealed. Restoration and redemption can flow. So he took me to page, let me get my glasses on. He took me to page around sixteen and at It's really talking about your recount of what was happening and you were on ground zero during Hurricane Katrina. But what struck me, and I just have to read this, people walked around in a zombie-like daze. It was the combination of grief, exhaustion, shell shock, fear, loss, and uncertainty. I found that during Hurricane Ian, here in Fort Myers in Southwest Florida, when we had a direct impact. It was that zombie-like thing, exactly like you described. Now I have a question for you from the Holy Spirit. Michael, during the most difficult time after Hurricane Katrina, when you had lost it all, did you ever doubt God? Did your faith ever fail you? So you take that wherever you want to go. Do you need me to read it again? Sure. Go right ahead. Okay. So he says during the most difficult time after hurricane Katrina, when you had lost it all, or you lost so much, cause I know that you had direct impacts. Did you ever doubt God? Did your faith ever fail you? Well, you know, I never gave up on God in the midst of that awful disaster, but I sure had a lot of questions. I had a tree cut my house in two. I had eighteen pine trees come down on the house or right around the house. We had fifty percent of the people in the church knew someone who died in Katrina. Eighty percent of people lost their jobs or had to remanufacture their jobs. And ninety-eight percent of the people were scattered across the South. I wondered if we'd survive. I never had training what to do in this kind of level of a disaster. Everyone around me was hurting. And so, you know, I had questions, questions, questions. You know, what, God, how? Where are we going? How am I going to make it? Will the church survive? Will the community survive? You know, those things were very tangible. I didn't know where my next meal was coming from for the first time in my life. People were living and dying in those first couple weeks in ways I had never seen up close. And so, yeah, I... I came to conclude this. You never quite know that Jesus is all you need until Jesus is all you got. And then I was finding out experientially, you know, I knew this from the word of God. I knew this from the promises of God, but I was finding it out experientially. In the midst of nothingness, Jesus is there and he can make it up One day at a time, but not only one day at a time, he was making it up every ten minutes at a time. And in those first couple months, he would make it up in miraculous ways. So I had prayed twenty nine straight years up to that point that I would live through a kind of a revival experience. You know, you just yearn for that. You read about it in scripture. You hear it about it in church history. I never knew that it would take a hurricane to bring about those times where people were run over by a Mack truck. But Jesus, Jesus would meet us and he would provide what we needed in the midst of all those questions. All those, Lord, help. Lord, we don't know what we're doing. but I can honestly see we were a people who walked with God during that time. Wow, that's powerful. It truly is letting us under, people need to understand we're the hands and feet of Jesus. And we are the answer to prayer. So when you obey God and when you go where God says for you to go by way of his Holy Spirit, you are the answer to someone's prayer. And I know you heard that many times. Wow. You're the answer to my prayer. That's just, that's powerful. Now he had me skipping more to around pages, forty six and forty seven. And even I am a, looking at what he wants me to do. So he wants me to read just a little bit of this. You titled this section, Hitting a Wall. God will allow you to hit a wall if an idol needs to be stripped away. As we've already discussed, he knows how to get our attention. A well-timed wall in our way will make us admit, I can't handle this on my own. I need God's strength. I need to surrender to his plans. Here's what I'm slowly learning. Sometimes when God seems to be killing me, he is actually making me and sometimes even killing an idol. And then you go through and recount Abraham. And then he wanted me to sit down to when a dream dies. And let me see. Oh, this is what he highlighted in this section. At the end of the tape, the pastor said, if God gives you a dream and the dream comes to life and God shows up in it and then the dream dies, it may be that God wants to see what is more important to you, the dream or him. And once he's seen that, you may get your dream back or you may not. And you live the rest of your life without it. But that will be okay because you'll have God. Yeah. And the question, and by the way, this was published in twenty eleven, this book right around twenty eleven. When did you start writing it? End of twenty ten. OK, so the question from the Holy Spirit, you can't make this up. Get ready. You didn't know what you were getting into when you said you were coming on this show. You're good, Tammy. Michael, when you wrote these two sections, did they resonate in your spirit on a personal level? Were you living through the loss of a dream at the time? Father often has us minister through some of the most painful things that are personally plaguing us. So we know we can do all things in his strength. And he carries the load. What load was he carrying for you around that time? Oh, it was deeply personal, deeply personal. You know, I pastored a church. My heart was as a shepherd. You know, you preach the word, you love people. But the year before Katrina hit, the leaders of the church had tasked me with putting together a strategic plan for the church. I was the point person. I worked hard. I included everybody else in the process. But a few weeks before Katrina hit, I had put together a seventy-some page strategic plan And we met as leaders. And I don't know how it goes in your church or your listeners' church, but usually when you come up with plans, especially big plans, you know, they don't get approved all at once. You got to talk about it. You got to pray about it. You got to go through and research a few other things. I came together and presented Michael's plan. Catch that, Michael's plan to the leaders. And that night, the elders of the church, in one hour, approved The entire seventy pages. This included new staff, new buildings, new initiatives. It was what we're going to do in three months, what we're going to do in six months, what we're going to do in three years, five years. It was quite impressive. And the leaders weren't impressed with it. In fact, I felt pretty good about myself when we went home. I'm convinced that night, the Holy Spirit, the Father must have said to Jesus, Jesus, have you seen Michael's plan? And I think they broke out in chuckles and then they turned to the Holy Spirit and they broke out in belly laughs because they're thinking Michael's going to accomplish something through his plan. And I think somewhere along the line, they said, why don't we not go with Michael's plan? Why don't we go with our own plan? And Though what happened isn't something I'd wish upon anybody, I wouldn't trade what God did in my life for anything. Things that I couldn't have learned through probably great times, I learned in the midst of Katrina. And the biggest thing I learned was brokenness, letting go of self-sufficiency, letting go of Michael's plan, Michael's will, Michael's agenda, And just coming to understand that God is sovereign and he's at work. And my job, though it's not wrong to plan if you're including the Holy Spirit in your planning. My job is to jump into the middle of what God's doing and join him in his work. not to have my work be what's central. And I've learned this. I used to get up because I always love tackling the day. And I get up in the morning and my words were usually something like this. God, I'm going to be very busy today. would you please bless my plan and by the way lord would you not give me many problems today thank you amen and I'm being a little bit facetious in that but I can tell you there was too much of that kind of prayer for the last uh ten plus years I've been getting up and I'd say seventy five percent of the mornings before I get out of bed my prayer has changed a little bit And it's been, Jesus, you're going to be very busy today. Would you allow me to join you in your work? You know, you might think those words aren't too different, but for me, it's a whole different paradigm. It's a whole different way of doing life. And whether it's in the midst of a disaster or whether it's in just the monotony of sometimes our lives just, uh, you know go pretty uh normally or pretty slowly in the midst of our lives to partner with jesus in his work is just the greatest joy of my life I didn't know that fully before it was all about michael or should I say too much about michael and when you make it about him It changes the way that I'm living. It's kind of the way Jesus put it. If you try to save your life, you'll end up losing your life. But if you kind of lose your life for Jesus and his work, you kind of end up finding those things that you're looking for all along. And that doesn't mean the outward circumstances are great. They could be devastating or very difficult. But there's a life that you get with union with Jesus. And you can't have that life unless you have the life. And Jesus is the one who is the life. And so I'm learning. I'm learning to walk with him, to abide in him. And he knows how to make up my life. He makes it up better than I can. And believe me, I've tried to make it up. But more and more, I'm trying to have him make it up and join him in what he wants to do rather than what Michael wants to do. That's so powerful because we have to realize that we're one in spirit, the spirit of Jesus, the spirit of God, the spirit of Christ is in us, the Holy Spirit. And we are under one head, which is Christ, and we're the body. Maybe you're the arm, I'm the leg. And we're really in a war and we're as soldiers. And we need to obey his orders and surrender to his will for our lives and not our own. I mean, we wouldn't march into battle and tell the general kind of what to do. We wouldn't last very long. You know, we we have to learn to submit and surrender for the betterment of the body, for the unity of the church, for the unity of the bride. And so that's very powerful what you said and the knowledge that we glean from your perspective, because it's all about looking through a different lens. And what I've learned and experienced through following Christ is I try to look at people through his Christ-centered lenses instead of my own flawed lenses. I look at people through his perspective. So let's keep going and let's see what else he's got. So now I move to page ninety two. Oh, now, you know, I got to have faith if I'm going to ask you this, Michael. Have you ever felt unclean or not worthy of the love of Jesus? Can you elaborate on this section? And I put, I was deeply intrigued with your depiction of Christ in this section. So let me, in this section, it was when you were talking about the zealots, the Sadducees, and Michael, how do you pronounce that last one? Is cities? Yes. Yes. Yes. And the Pharisees. So that was the section. And he specifically was on page ninety two where it talked about and I'll read it uncompromising on God's views of sexuality and loose living. He still enjoyed the company. We're talking about Jesus. Actually, let me go up a little bit. It says it's easy to build a box. It's easy to exclude. It's easy to draw lines in the sand, but it's hard to build a bridge. How did Jesus do it? And it says, Jesus knew where to draw lines in the sand and where not to. When Jesus did draw lines in the sand, they were precise, absolute, and unchanging. Jesus crossed every single line and loved people on the other side. uncompromising on God's views of sexual morality and loose living, he still enjoyed the company of adulterers and prostitutes. Jesus' huge heart for the poor, marginalized, and disenfranchised did not prevent his friendship with their oppressors, the tax gatherers. The embodiment of holiness Jesus still sees each day to befriend sinners and He lived in an occupied land. yet love the occupiers. Does it make sense? Only if you look at things through Jesus' kingdom lenses. Wow. And then I go down a little bit and I have written out wow just wow beside it. Jesus was never fearful of contamination. He planned to rub off on others rather than them rubbing off on him. He never said make yourself clean and I will eat with you, but rather eat with me and I will make you clean. If you've only tried to attain Jesus, you've simply tasted a counterfeit Jesus. No one comes into contact with the real Jesus and remains unchanged. Wow. And so my question to you again, his question to you, have you ever felt unclean or not worthy of the love of Jesus? Or can you elaborate on this section? And I don't know, whatever he's putting on your heart. Well, This is something that I have just looked at the way I kind of was brought up that people believe and then you're allowed to belong. If you're not believers, you're just kind of excluded, left out, looked at as different. I kind of looked at Jesus and saw he looked at people in a different way. He kind of said to them, why don't you come follow me why don't you come and see why don't you just hang out with me why don't you belong and in the process I found that many who just were in the circle ended up believing when I go to the capitol or work with elected leaders I don't care who they are, how low they've sunk, how high they've climbed. I don't care what the reputation is. I meet people as people and I don't put them into categories. So many of the people in Jesus' day would put people into categories and often that meant they pushed people away. And Jesus, who was the most important person to Jesus? It was always who was in front of him at the moment. I want to live without putting people in categories and honor those who are in front of me at the moment. And I want to bring Jesus into that equation because you never know what a person in Jesus can actually turn into. I lead our Louisiana delegation up to the national prayer breakfast. And so there's a hundred and fifty nations represented, all fifty states usually. And we go to a house that they use three hundred and sixty five days a year. And the Mao, Chinese emperor, premier Mao, his grandson was at the house. I mean, think of kind of the history of that family and what his grandfather had done. But my friend Doug, who was with him, what do you do when you're with Mao's grandson? Well, you just start asking questions and you honor the person that you're with. Miles' grandson said, my grandfather, he wasn't religious. My father wasn't religious. My mother was. And so my friend Doug said, well, you're not very religious. I'm not very religious either. And he drew two boxes, one he put religion and the other he put in the box Jesus. And he says, I've come to find that often religion or at least manmade religion, it turns into a set of rules and a spirit of condemnation. Yet there's Jesus who reaches out to include and there's love and there's truth. And he wants people to be connected relationally with God and others. and for conflicts to be reconciled. It was quite a conversation. I've had that same conversation with elected leaders and business leaders where I find religion can sometimes divide and sometimes be used for very man-made purposes. The person of Jesus reaches out because There's a hole in the heart of every single person. You can try to fill it with power or pleasure or friends or money. Good things you can try. And as good as those things are, it can't fill the God shaped hole in a heart. And I found in my life I was missing something and I found out it was a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And when I found it, it changed everything. And I couldn't get to God on my own. Inside, I was kind of falling apart, though I had everything outwardly. And yet that made the difference in my life. And I just want every person I come into contact with to know that they can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. And no matter what they've done, how far they've sunk, no matter what the secrets are or how high they've climbed. Jesus wants to meet them and have that relationship with them. It's changed my life. And if people are listening today and haven't experienced that, know that God is reaching out to you even this day. no matter what you've done he understands and he did what we couldn't do for ourselves and he just says come come if you're weary today and all of us to some degree are probably weary and heavy laden over something he wants to give a rest for our souls and it's available it's him you might sense a little tap on your shoulder you might sense a little voice in your heart it might be him and lean toward him today he's reaching out for you wow so powerful and I know I was you know one of the ones that was pulled out of the gutter you know most of the people know I survived child sex trafficking and found out after I wrote an article published in the National Library of Medicine on human trafficking, that what happened to me as a child was actually human trafficking. And my mother would have been considered to be my trafficker. And then I lost my father to suicide as a teenager. He came back from Vietnam, wasn't the same. And all I know is that I was one way. And then after Jesus, came into my life and the Holy Spirit truly filled me up and I surrendered everything to the foot of the cross. That victim self, I've never been the same. And he cured me of all my addictions, you know, food addiction, sex addictions, alcohol I drink, you know, and, you know, pills to get to sleep. And he took it all away and he washed me clean. And he can wash others clean. And you're never too dirty. You're never too full of shame or guilt or in the murk and the mire that he won't pull you out. He's there. He's available. He's waiting. All you have to do like the man with the withered hand is reach out. He will meet you where you are. He will meet you in the middle of your storm. He will meet you in the middle of your circumstance. So I thank you for that powerful insight. And now we're going to move on. He's got me going to page one, and again, it talks about one thing was for sure. You were never the same after being with Jesus. Uh, and it says here, how did the Jesus of the scriptures show up after Katrina? How has he shown up personally for you in those you love the most? And you already went into that a little bit, but how did the Jesus of the scripture show up after Katrina? And I believe that's a lot of what this section was about. Yes. Yes. Oh, it was from the very beginning. Jesus showed up in miraculous ways In the early days, the hospitals ran out of a lot of things. We would just watch and trucks would come in with supplies, random things. It was, it was just strange that the very thing the hospitals told us they need needed would often be on the trucks that came in. You know, hospitals would never just take things from kind of a stranger off the street, but in those days it was days of desperation and they were more than glad to say, thank you. Thank you. It was that over and over again in the midst of the disaster. It wasn't just those who were poor that lost everything. It was those who had much that had lost everything as well. And for the first time in their life, they were needy. And there wasn't a single person that you couldn't pray with or talk to about God. Not a single person. It was days when people had just had their security blankets and their crutches kicked out from under them. And they were open to God and what God might be doing. And the biggest thing I saw was that there was a volunteer revolution that took place, partly why I wrote the book. You know, I thought that was an untold story, that it wasn't the government or FEMA by and large that came and did the work. It was volunteers. Often, those were followers of Jesus that would just invest a week or two weeks. They would just show up. They would just come. And they poured themselves out. And people's lives were literally changed. People's lives were saved. And the Holy Spirit provided. You know, in the scriptures, you read these. stories of the God of the resupply. And you know, once the prophet had nothing, there was a poor woman who had a little boy and they were down to their last meal together. And the prophet shows up and she had a little bit of flour. She had a little bit of oil, one last meal, and then they were going to die. And the prophet, the prophet of God says, you know, it's kind of like unbelievable. If you'll give me that last meal, something good is going to happen to you. And she's kind of like, give you our last meal. And she did. And for the rest of that famine, the rest of that disaster, every single day when she got up, there was enough flour and oil so that she and her son could live. And we saw that happen time and time again where God is the God of the resupply. You know, we didn't have necessarily more than what we needed, but we had what we needed for that day. and it was provided for people in the community, and then houses rebuilt, lives restored, hope that was given, people able to cling to that hymn of Jesus' garment in a way that they might have heard the story, but they never literally had to reach out and just grab for it. Jesus, if you don't come through, I'm not going to come through. And, you know, what I didn't know was that when it seemed like Jesus was crushing me, he was actually making me. And for many people, as they went through that time, they met Jesus in a way where he wasn't just the genie in the bottle. Oh, Jesus, you know, have everything go perfect in my life. He became the Jesus who was on the throne and the Jesus who was sovereign. And the Jesus we could call out to. But the Jesus who came near, even as we came near to him. The one who was the shepherd and the comforter. The one sometimes was people's savior in that moment. And then he was people's refuge that they could run to. There's no one like Jesus. He is so compelling. And when you meet the real Jesus, you kind of don't want to leave him ever again. you just want to know him deeper and deeper not the jesus that we make up because sometimes as the old saying goes god made us in his image and then we return the favor sometimes we make a jesus up in our own image and he's just there to serve our needs rather than us meeting the jesus who is on the throne the jesus who's the loving savior the one who prays for us and the one who is there. And that's the Jesus I want all people to know, the Jesus of the scriptures. Nobody ever connected with Jesus and remained the same. Sometimes people connected with Jesus and they didn't want any part of him and some wanted to get rid of him. But so many people, when they met him, they just said, this is whom I've been looking for my entire life. This isn't the one. And their life gets changed. And that's the Jesus I want more and more and more people to know personally. Wow. One moment in his presence changes everything. And I too, you know, I'm a woman on a mission because he set me free, broke every chain. And I want people to know I'm the richest woman in the world. because I have peace and joy despite my circumstances. I can sleep at night. So many things he gave me. I was one way and then I was another. I was dead and then he gave me life truly. And I was walking around like a zombie in the aftermath of childhood trauma. And he set me free. And he's eagerly awaiting others to know him, to know the Jesus that we know, the relationship, relational Jesus, the one that he is everything. He's my friend. He's my comforter. He's everything to me. And I just thank you. I thank you for that. And now... We're going to venture to around page one fifty five. And I must tell you something that I wasn't going to discuss today. But I wasn't prepared for what I read. And I will also tell you that for some reason, when I was finishing reading this book, I skipped this chapter. So it was the last chapter I read. And I never do that. And this morning I read this chapter because God took me to page one fifty-five and I said, well, wait a minute, God, I don't even know what he's talking about. And I flipped through and I said, oh, I didn't read this section. So I read it. And then I got to page one fifty-four and I read, Ann Wells of the Los Angeles Times reports the paradigm shift she experienced when her sister died unexpectedly. I lost my sister a few days ago. Oh my. Bless you, your family. And I got the call, it was my baby sister, just about three days ago. literally like wednesday and I remember you and I when we talked about this program I said to you you gave me the week and I said I'm really believing saturday's the day and I didn't choose wednesday didn't choose thursday I said you know I really believe holy spirit wants us to go on saturday well little did I know my sister was going to die and so I'm here today on his strength but michael what you need to understand everybody needs to understand you wrote this book almost fifteen years ago and why would you put in it a little blurb when her sister died unexpectedly it hit me so hard but it hit me because this book carried me this week this book carried me this week and you showing me the love of Jesus and reminded me that he was my anchor because when those of us who've been victimized as children. And our parents had something to do with it. Or there was a parental neglect or an incest or something. We grieve in a whole different way. It's exponentially harder. Those of us who are victims of familiar human trafficking. I had to pull myself out of the gutter this week, fight through the grief to be able to come on today. But when I read that, I realized that my God my God, had you put this in this book. And it just hit me. And so I just wanted to thank you for that and let you know, you may not have understood why you put that in the book, Because there was so much that you could have placed in the book, and that's going to get to another question here in a minute that I want to ask you, which that was in there. Now, what are the odds? There are no odds. There are no coincidences. There is no such thing as luck when you follow God. That I, Tammy Toney Butler, will be reading this book this week, interviewing you, and my sister died unexpectedly. My baby sister, just a few days ago. Wow. Tammy, God bless you and your family in your loss. So many times we might shake upon the rock, but the rock doesn't shake under us. And he knows, he cares, he draws near. I know you know that, but good to be reminded. Bless you and your family. And oh, the Holy Spirit would reach into those innermost parts your soul that are nicked and bruised or bleeding or raw and provide the salve of the Holy Spirit today for you today, tomorrow, this coming week. And I'm sure there's some others listening that they've got the same or it's a little bit different. I had very dear friends of mine lost their twenty five year old daughter in law this week in a tragic car accident and the little baby was spared, but the mom was crushed. And, you know, it just comes out of nowhere. You know, you can't see it coming. You can't explain it. It shouldn't have happened, but it did happen. And, you know, you can kind of be numb sometimes or you can kind of, you know, just have to say, oh God, help me because I don't know what to do in this moment. and yet he reaches out a hand, his spirit draws near and thanks for sharing that. But God's love, God's love. I know there's people all through this call and around you that love you and are drawing near as well. And I just lift up that family in prayer. And I learned a long time ago, the why questions, You may never get an answer on this side. You know, when I get to heaven, there's questions that I'll ask God or maybe not. But I had to stop asking why. Why did my dad kill himself? Why this? Why, you know, did my mom not leave? All these things. But why will destroy you? And so you have to just sort of let go and let God and surrender to the process and to the grief. And he just carries you through and he uses it. He uses it for good. And I thank you. I thank you for putting that in this book. And we do lift up that family and all those who are listening to this program who've been hurt, who have those raw open wounds. Remember, we also have hotline support on our Reflective Spaces Ministry website. Always in the show notes, we put that information because sometimes it's content can be triggering. Know that God is with you. The God of the resupply. The God of abundance. The God of peace in the middle of the storm. He's with you. He's with you. And now we'll move on to page one seventy four. And I love what you said, when you said, I believe the reliability of the Bible and the authority of Jesus Christ. What Jesus believes, I believe. I don't believe in being obsessed with the devil, seeing a demon behind every tree, attributing every mental, emotional, physical, spiritual problem to him or thinking he makes people's heads spin around. However, I also don't want to underestimate him. And then the question that I have, I don't have, the Holy Spirit had for you, is Michael, how do you fight the spiritual warfare that you face almost daily as a man of God? How do we teach others to not underestimate, you know, the devil and his schemes and realize that we all have authority as the believer over this spiritual warfare, but we, you know, my people perish for lack of knowledge. So how do we give them the knowledge? How do you and other leaders that are getting hammered? I know I have to really fight spiritual warfare all the time. And so how do you persevere? What would you say or what has that quickened in your spirit to comment on? Yeah, Peter put resist the devil, draw near to God. Resist the devil, draw near to God. Jesus in Matthew four and Luke four He was led by the spirit to go out into the wilderness. This is after he had just had his baptism in which the father had said, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. And you thought after thirty years of living in obscurity, it would finally be the launch of his ministry. But immediately after the baptism, he was led out into the spirit to be tempted by the devil. But I observe from Jesus that Jesus, at those parts, without eating, with being in the midst of wild animals, being alone, being in conditions that were harsh, when the devil came at perhaps a low point and tried to tear away his identity, if you are the son of God, kind of like Maybe if you really were who you were supposed to be and you really had a father who cared about you, you wouldn't be out in the wilderness hungry. Jesus used the word of God over and over. It is written. It is written. It is written. We don't want to be ignorant of the devil's devices. And we want to understand his old, old bag of tricks. But we do not want to put the over-emphasis on the devil. We want to put the emphasis on Jesus Christ and the Word of God. And Jesus Christ and the Word of God are powerful. They're active. And so I encourage people, walk with the Lord, be in the Word of God, cling to His promises, know His truths. And with that sword, we can go on the offense and fight this battle that we have. It is very real. You know, we can kind of think, oh, this is just kind of spiritual, figurative language. No, we are in a battle. And the evil one wants to steal, kill, and destroy. I'm talking about you, me, our listeners, our families, our children, our grandchildren, our schools, our community. But God, and but the word of God, And greater is he who's in us than he who's in the world. And we use the word of God and the power of the living Lord Jesus Christ to fight this battle. And he will see us through because the battle is the Lord's. And maybe today someone is saying, I'm in the midst of a battle. Maybe it's betrayal. Maybe it's the loss of a job. Maybe it's somebody who's persecuting or being harsh. Someone who is going through physical problems. These are very real battles. But these are opportunities to have Jesus show up in the midst of that. And like he did with another prophet who told his servant, Those who are with us are more than those who are with them. There was a whole enemy army outside. And the servant's there with Elisha. And the servant's kind of nervous. He knows that that army isn't there to sell Girl Scout cookies. They're there to kill them. And in his fear, he turned to And the prophet said, those who are with us are more than those who are with them. And you can kind of think that servant goes back to the window and counts. Two thousand, five thousand, ten thousand. And then he looks back into the house and he counts one, two. There's just two of us. And maybe he thought that the prophet was bad at mathematics. But the prophet said to that servant, God, would you open his eyes and show him? what's really going on and he looked out the window again and saw the angel armies and there was a great victory for god that day there is an angel army there's the word of god but most of all there's the person of jesus christ who has won is winning and will win And though our circumstances might be very challenging and he doesn't promise us on this side anything but a fallen world, in the midst of that brokenness, those trials, those temptations, he will provide us what we need to take the next step forward in the next step. He will provide it. And the word of God will provide it. And I think as we put our focus there, rather than our focus on the devil, he will see us through. He will, he will, he will. And somebody might be tempted to quit today that's listening. God's saying to you not to quit. Be aware of Satan and be aware of the war. But put your focus once again, your eyes upon Jesus And the word of God. He might deliver you from the fiery furnace that you're going through. Or he might just go into the fiery furnace with you. But he won't abandon you. And he'll see you through. Someone might need to hear that today. To hold on to that. To cling to it. And to see Jesus make up. your journey because he will not will not let you down for the listeners you will get to the end of your life and I'm convinced that you will be able to say even though there were many walking through those shadow of death kind of moments you'll be able to say on your deathbed surely goodness and mercy followed me all the days of my life and now I'm gonna dwell in the house of the lord forever that will be your story even if it looks very dark and difficult today he will journey with you Oh, that's so good. Yes, he will. He will never leave you nor forsake you. Never, never, never, never leave you nor forsake you. Now, just getting just a few more and then we're going to conclude. OK, we're on page one ninety nine. And this is powerful to me. when I read it, but I read Stark concludes that the key to their success was a willingness to sacrifice themselves out of love for others. And this is talking about, I believe you're talking about the Jesus movement, right? Yes. So Stark concludes that the key to their success was a willingness to sacrifice themselves out of love for others. This sacrifice such as the following rock the world. They treated slaves as human beings, sometimes liberating them. They elevated women and treated them with dignity. They reacted to persecution as martyrs, not terrorists. They loved neighbors, as one pagan said, as if they were their family. They offered charity and hope to strangers, orphans, losers, and the lame. And then we talked about, then it went down to say, Lawrence showed up with orphans, widows, the blind, the lame, and the poor and said, sir, these are the treasures of the church. Let me start over. Tradition has it that a Roman government official demanded St. Lawrence, the second century treasurer of the church, bring forth all the treasures of the church. And Lawrence showed up with orphans, widows, the blind, the lame, and the poor and said, sir, these are the treasures of the church. For which he was burned on a spit over a bed of coals. But it's just this section. I just I just love it. I love how you recounted. I believe that's the right word where you told the story of each disciple, how they met their end. You know, and as Christ followers. we suffer and we aren't to resemble the world. And so I thought that was powerful. And then the question that the Holy Spirit had for you is, Michael, what one thing in the political climate we face today in this global culture of technology's influence sets you apart as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus? So what one thing in the political climate we face today in global culture of technology's influence sets you apart as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus? Well, you know, people... always uh kind of wonder sometimes michael how can you go into those places of politics and corruption and you know evil and you know they just go on and on with their with their list and you know I uh I go because uh you know if you meet with god in the morning it's no problem to meet with a senator in the afternoon And if you don't want anything from someone, you're kind of freed up so that there's not just a mass agenda going on. I find that where, and this works, I think in the political world, but I think it works in family. I think it works in business education. If you have trust-filled relationships, anything becomes possible. And if you don't have trust, everything's hard or impossible. Isn't that the way marriage works? Or isn't that the way a small group works or a church works or your community works? And so Jesus was very relational. He wasn't offering a religion. He was offering himself. And he wasn't trying to squeeze people into a mold he was offering something that people could freely choose and so when I go to the capitol I'm going there to just say jesus who do you want me to talk to today I'm not trying to twist anyone's arm I'm not a lobbyist I'm just trying to say uh jesus I want to see what you're doing I'm not taking Jesus to the Capitol I'm joining Jesus in his work at the Capitol he's already there and I get to see because he's already there you get to see some people's lives change you get I had a lobbyist not too long ago he met with me for breakfast and he just says I want to get into the game You're in the game. You're doing work for the kingdom. What can I do? He's gone and started two Bible studies and he's reaching out to people I will never touch and reach out to. He's now in the game. I love to encourage our leaders. Just they are on the front lines. Yeah, they might be a representative or a senator, but first and foremost, they're an ambassador of Jesus. And when they get a hold of that calling, that they can make a difference in their sphere. It isn't just what goes on on Sunday morning. It's what goes on Monday through Friday. When they get that, it kind of changes everything. And so when people, leaders of all levels, moms, dads, grandparents, whoever it is, when they pick up that we're saved by grace, but there's good works that we're appointed to do that flow out of that grace relationship. It's something then that when unbelievers see that, they often notice those good deeds and end up glorifying the Father who's in heaven. And so that's what Rodney Stark was saying. How can this small little marginalized Jesus group You know, they were twelve people. Then they were one hundred and twenty people that were scared in that upper room. How did that group end up changing the world? They did it out of a revolution of love. And I'll close with with this. I was at I was at a gathering that a senator, U.S. senator, was having. And they were. I was supposed to open in prayer. Well, six hundred angry protesters showed up. And and I was the only one there in the room when they poured into the room. They needed a target and I was the only target. And so for five minutes they stood up and they pointed their finger at me and they chanted, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. Then two women got up out of the audience and accused me of being Hitler or a Nazi. And it was some morning the Holy Spirit was saying to me when that was happening. Number one, Michael, your name is not Shane. You are the most cherished son of the most high God. You've been blood bought. You've been redeemed. You've been justified. You're my son. That's who you are. But he also reminded me of an old Chuck Colson quote. where Chuck asked the question, if a blind man stepped on your foot, would you be mad at him? You know, would you be mad at the blind man for stepping on your foot? No. Why? Because the person is blind. And I discern that many of those people, if not all those people in the room, were spiritually blind. And when I was spiritually blind, somebody stretched for me. when it was uncomfortable to stretch for Michael. And I needed to stretch for them. And I try to go through life thinking that everyone I see, they're one humble prayer away from being my brother and sister in Christ. Hey, that person, wow, they're doing what they're doing because they're spiritually blind. But that person, that person is not beyond the grace of God. or that person, that person, someone for whom Jesus died for. When I go through life with those kind of eyes, and I think that's what they picked up in the first century, eyes of love, eyes of inclusion, eyes of, I'm not who I am because of who I am. I'm who I am because of what Jesus did on my behalf. I think that there's a grace motivation then That ends up being part of this revolution of the body of Christ that really has a revolution of love. And when people sense it and feel it, they often say, what's this all about? Or I want to know what's behind this or who's behind this. And one by one by one, people get reached. The church of Jesus is unstoppable, unstoppable, and we get to be part of it. I always think, two thousand years ago in the Roman Empire, if you were to ask people out on the streets, who are the people who are going to be remembered in two thousand years? The people on the streets would have said, Caesar! Nero. They're the greats. If you said, what about those Jesus people? Will they be remembered in two thousand years ago? They would have said, those are nobodies. They will be dead in no time. No one will ever remember them in history. But two thousand years has come and gone, and we name our children Mary and And Peter and Andrew and James and John and Esther. And we name our dogs Nero and Caesar. The kingdom of God can't be stopped. And we can be part of it through Jesus Christ. And today, no matter what we've got going on, and for some people, it's a heavy day. Some people, it's hard to smile today. Some people... It's just been one of those weeks, one of those months, or one of those years. But we can know that we're part of his people and that he is at work in our lives. And in that, in that, we can rejoice. Rejoice, I say rejoice. And then the last... section in the book that the holy spirit pointed out and then next to the last question it's pages around page And you were talking about the role of faith-based organizations. And you said, I am honored to be part of the emerging conversation on how the Church of Jesus Christ will respond with heart and hands to the challenges of our world. I've seen the passion and sense of calling volunteer faith-based people bring to the table. What an opportunity. Churches don't run from problems, they run to them. And so, Based on this and even your last question and your answer, what role do faith-based organizations play today in showing the world the love, humility, grace, mercy, and inclusion that Lord Jesus showed the most unsavory characters as you so eloquently depict in your book? well uh jesus put it you know all men will know that you are my disciples not by how many church meetings you attend during the week but by the love that you have for one another and I just I just observed that by and large people of faith are those who move out of the four walls of the building into the community into the areas of need they draw near They come close. They get involved. They get their hands dirty. For those believers that have caught that and practiced that, it is making a difference. And there's just somebody out there even today that's just waiting for someone to get out of their comfort zone and draw near to them so that they can hear what they've never heard before. or they can sense a love that they've never sensed before, or they can get a hug that they've maybe never had before. It's because God's people are choosing to go. And isn't that the way Jesus put it? Go, go, go and make disciples. And as we go, people's lives get changed. And those who are hurting, the marginalized, the forgotten by some, the orphan, the widow, those who have no hope, those are the ones who are on the heart of God. And whether they're lost or lonely or what, there is opportunity for them to become part of the family of God. And that's our calling. That's a privilege. We've been left here for those kind of things. the grace of God is available to all, all they have to do is receive it. Powerful. And then the last question as we conclude, and we always, I let the Holy Spirit guide the program. And these were the questions that he wanted and the points that he wanted Michael to hit on. Now I will tell you husbands, uh, the Holy spirit does speak through your wives and wives. Uh, the Holy spirit does speak through your husband. This is a question from my husband. When you write a book, the editing process is a big part of the creation. Sometimes for brevity, some of the concepts or ideas do not make the cut. Therefore any stories or ideas, not in the book that you may want to share with us. Well, You know, one of the things God's put on my heart in the past month is this is really been just pressed on my spirit. It comes from Psalm seventy eight. And it's a question that's asked in verse twelve. Can God really spread a table in the wilderness? Can God spread a table in the wilderness? There's another question that comes in Psalm one, thirty seven, verse four. How can how can we sing songs to the Lord while in a foreign land? How can we rejoice and sing songs when we're living in a foreign land? In this case, it was Babylon, or it might have been for the people of God, Egypt, or it might have been in the Roman Empire. But. Can God spread a table in the wilderness? Can we sing songs rejoicing in a foreign land? Or you could take another question from scripture. Can good come out of bad? I was just with my representative in Washington, DC, Representative Steve Scalise. Some of your listeners would recognize that name. He's number two in the House of Representatives. And he was the representative who was shot a few years ago at a baseball game that they were practicing to have where the Republicans played the Democrats. Steve came a whisker short of dying on the baseball field from his gunshot wounds. And he's had thirty-some operations since then and has challenging times. I was just with Steve in Washington, D.C. and asked those questions. And Steve could say, and I can say, the answer is yes, God can set a table in the wilderness. We can rejoice even if we're in places that we never expected to be. And God can bring good out of bad. That doesn't mean everything is good. There's some things that are just evil. But can he work in the midst of the evil? Yes, he can. Because that's who he is. I wrap with this story. It's my favorite D-Day story. There was at the fiftieth anniversary of D-Day. There were many soldiers who went back to the place they hadn't been in since they were eighteen years old or twenty years old on that historic day at D-Day. And there were two soldiers that were interviewed. The one soldier they started with, they asked him what it was like and what were you thinking on D-Day? He said, oh, it was horrific. The bullets were flying. The machine guns were mowing people down. The bombs were exploding. Blood was being spilled. And the only thing I could think of on D-Day was that there was no way we could possibly win. They turned to the soldier right next to him. He was now older and he was kind of stuffed into his old uniform from being age eighteen and now he was probably near seventy. And they said, well, what were you thinking back during that historic day? And he says, oh, the machine guns were mowing people down. Bullets were flying. Blood was being spilled. It was a terrible day. But as I look down that day, I know exactly what I was thinking. I was up in an airplane up above and I was watching the movements. And as I looked down and saw the movements, I thought all day long, there is no way we could possibly lose. Here's two people on the same beach on the same day with circumstances being very, very difficult. The one at ground level could only see how can we possibly come out of this well. We're going to lose. The one who had the perspective from up above knew that there was no way they could possibly lose. And I think that that's the way it is through life. If we only have the perspective of seeing the circumstances that are right in front of us, We're going to think, oh, this is impossible. I'm going to lose in this. But if we have the perspective from above, if we get God's perspective, we're going to be able to cling to God. I don't know how you're going to do this. It seems awfully dark and hard today. But I know with you, there's no way I could possibly lose. Wow. Well, with that, we end the show. And I just thank you so much for your time, Michael. I'm going to say goodbye to you now on stage and show your book again, just so they can see what it looks like again and make sure they get a copy on Amazon. And again, God bless you, keep you, and thank you so much for today. God bless you all and all your listeners. Wow. There are no words. God, but God, right? What a powerful time that we've shared here together. I just want to show you, this is Michael's book, Betting the Farm on God and Life's Storms. It's called Disaster. It's on Amazon. I love this book. This book has carried me through this week and it really shows you a side of Jesus that that you just need to see. No matter how dark it is out there, no matter what's going on, God is on the throne and he will see you through. Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit, bless them and keep them. Bring them peace in the middle of their storms. Strengthen them. Be with them in their times of trouble and bring healing to those raw, open wounds. You are the salve. You are the salve, the comforter, the author and finisher of our faith. You're everything. Everything you are is in your name, Lord Jesus. Thank you for the time that we've had together. Christ loves you, and I love you. This is Tammy Toney- Butler with Reflective Hour. God bless you and keep